Curse

bhavv · Apr 28, 2009, 12:08 PM // 12:08

If you didnt quit GW over any of the previous 'dipshit' moves, then I doubt you would over this one. You would be raging for a while and quit temporarilly, but later on you will coming crawling back on your knees for more guild crack.

Believe that I have already tried to quit GW over all the dipshit moves made in the past, but as long as it is free to log in and play, all the rage queens like myself will still come crawling back, begging for more and more GW.

CyberNigma · Apr 28, 2009, 12:11 PM // 12:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

This directly affects the game. You are allowing people the option to purchase something that will give them a distinct edge over those who don't. That is not a good product for ANet to be putting onto the market. Having a full hero party is something that would have to come to everyone, or nobody at all.

And? That's not an edge over players by any means. All players in the game can unlock any set of skills they want through PvP or PvE play. Using the unlock pack simply speeds up this process. If it were to, say, give you access to a unique few skills that you couldn't obtain unless you bought the PvP Pack, then yes, it would be a product supporting unfair play in GW.

I agree with you. In fact, I should have brought up the unlock packs in my previous post on page 1. That's a good example of where TIME and RMT can co-exist. I bought the unlock packs to I could play what I saw as fun without unlocking everything for all my heroes and characters (well, PvP characters). I said the same would have to exist for the hero cap. Make it either both way s (people have to grind out a higher hero cap or they can buy it) or none at all. That puts me (a person with plenty of money but not much time) on the same playing field as a student or part-time worker (a person with plenty of time but not much money) without penalizing either.

*Darcy* · Apr 28, 2009, 12:11 PM // 12:11

NO! This would give an advantage to people with more real world disposable income.

Bad, bad idea.

CyberNigma · Apr 28, 2009, 12:21 PM // 12:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darcy

NO! This would give an advantage to people with more real world disposable income.

Bad, bad idea.

you hit the nail on the head as well.

Either make it available via grind at the same time as RMT or none at all. Right now most MMOs in the West give advantage to kids and students because they have more time, whereas most MMOs in the East give advantage to professionals because they have more money. This is a good way to balance it out (if they would do it) by allowing people to gain 7 hero slots by grinding/capping them somehow while allowing others without the time (but want to play the missions with 7 heroes) the chance to spend their hard earned cash.

EDIT: of course nobody should confuse grinding/RMT options with being able to buy I Win buttons, as that really defeats the idea of buying a game.

I still like the old school BBS games that limited you by how many turns or how much time per day you could play. This put everyone on an equal footing :-)

Ratson Itamar · Apr 28, 2009, 12:30 PM // 12:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

This directly affects the game. You are allowing people the option to purchase something that will give them a distinct edge over those who don't. That is not a good product for ANet to be putting onto the market. Having a full hero party is something that would have to come to everyone, or nobody at all.

And? That's not an edge over players by any means. All players in the game can unlock any set of skills they want through PvP or PvE play. Using the unlock pack simply speeds up this process. If it were to, say, give you access to a unique few skills that you couldn't obtain unless you bought the PvP Pack, then yes, it would be a product supporting unfair play in GW.

The advantage is not to the extend of the 7 heroes idea, but it still gives the buyer a (huge) head start. So it IS an advantage.

Elephantaliste · Apr 28, 2009, 12:34 PM // 12:34

some people should realize that would make GW be like a free 2 play (pay to win) model...
and the fact pvp unlocking packs are giving you pve advantages through heroes skills and unlocked skills (by real cash) buyable at any instructors is already an error that shouldn't have made.

People are arguing by comparing time spent IRL to IG but that is another wrong arguments, people wouldn't spend less or more time IG, it would be just that people would pay real cash to evoluate faster IG.

Imagine grayed hero slots ^^ GW would looks even more shareware-like !

lewis91 · Apr 28, 2009, 12:34 PM // 12:34

I wouldn't mind having more heroes but i wouldn't want to pay $40 for 4 heroes.

To those talking about how it would ruin the zchallenge idea, well that maybe so, but this is pretty much how i do the zchallenges:

Attempt PuG once only, if i fail, team up with any guildies, if theres none around, H/H Pass.

Hell i was in a PuG that failed to kill Molotov Rocktail in hardmode, so then i went out with H/H and killed him in less than 30 seconds.

So for the time being and when zchallenges start to get old and repetative, ima stick to H/H.

And im fine with the cap at 3, and reg or one of the other devs said theyre not even going to discuss removing the cap

Kerwyn Nasilan · Apr 28, 2009, 12:46 PM // 12:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ratson Itamar

PvP Packs say hi.

You can unlock skills normally, you cannot unlock hero slots normally.

No, convience and cosmetic pay for benefits are fine, ones that give a particular advantage are not ok.

Bryant Again · Apr 28, 2009, 12:46 PM // 12:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

If you didnt quit GW over any of the previous 'dipshit' moves, then I doubt you would over this one.

This type of addition would be unlike anything they had ever done before (with an arguable exception to unlock packs): In permitting the only access of additional hero slots to be through purchasing them through the in-game store, ANet would have completely drived the stake through Guild Wars' heart - and then again, and again, and again, until the body of GW is nothing but a throbbing, bloody pulp. Power should not be bought with cash.

If it's something that drastically changes the way the game is played, and not the way the game looks, then it needs to be made into a core and free addition to the game.

For spits and giggles (not much that proves my point) I asked a similar proposition on the TF2 forums. Check out response #12 :P

Ratson Itamar · Apr 28, 2009, 12:54 PM // 12:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kerwyn Nasilan

You can unlock skills normally, you cannot unlock hero slots normally.

No, convience and cosmetic pay for benefits are fine, ones that give a particular advantage are not ok.

Did you read my latest post in this thread? Rhetorical question, you obviously didn't. PvP unlock packs are not "just" cosmetic upgrades, they give you an immense advantage from the get go. I already had all the skills, items and every isle (TA and HA) unlocked so it didn't upset me that much, but saying that Anet only made cosmetic upgrades available for purchase is false.

Targren · Apr 28, 2009, 12:54 PM // 12:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

If you didnt quit GW over any of the previous 'dipshit' moves, then I doubt you would over this one. You would be raging for a while and quit temporarilly, but later on you will coming crawling back on your knees for more guild crack.

Doubt all you want. If it wasn't for the eternal mellow of my guildleader I would probably have RQ'd over the stylist (Wanted one for years, never offered to RMT for it).

They make us pay for a game-altering bugfix (because that IS what I consider more hero slots, since Henchmen are too limited in class and their skill bars are idiotic), and I'm all taillights.

Neo Atomisk · Apr 28, 2009, 12:55 PM // 12:55

I'd pay $40 to get 7 heroes in my party, however this is probably because of my view of most PuGs (and even guild members).
I see most people as not being able to coherently work with my play style. I also prefer heros because they'll follow any order I give them, without thinking twice.
And having 7 heroes means I can play whenever I want, or take a break for a bit if I get bored in the middle of a map. It's just my play style, I beat all 3 campaigns, mapped everything, and vq'd elona with real people a handful of times.

Gun Pierson · Apr 28, 2009, 01:01 PM // 13:01

I see no reason why they would charge us for something that was already worked out before the release of nightfall. They said they tested it.

A second thing to notice is that it will give an advantage to people who buy them.

If there really is no other option, I would buy them yes. I argumented too long in the seven heroes thread to look the other way now. They will increase my gaming experience a lot.

upier · Apr 28, 2009, 01:06 PM // 13:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

If you didnt quit GW over any of the previous 'dipshit' moves, then I doubt you would over this one. You would be raging for a while and quit temporarilly, but later on you will coming crawling back on your knees for more guild crack.

Believe that I have already tried to quit GW over all the dipshit moves made in the past, but as long as it is free to log in and play, all the rage queens like myself will still come crawling back, begging for more and more GW.

You don't need to quit GW in the traditional sense. You quit the brand and additional products brought out by A.Net/NCSoft.

In GW, you don't see the amount of damage a decision made until a new product comes out. I didn't buy GWEN, yet I still play GW. The game pisses me off to the extent that I don't buy additional products - but that doesn't mean I don't milk what I have for all it's worth.

Kattar · Apr 28, 2009, 01:16 PM // 13:16

One of the most imbalanced suggestions ever. ANet would be going against everything they've stood for in the past if they did this. Granted, as time has gone on they've gotten farther and farther away from their original plan and model. This would be equivalent to them turning around and running the other direction.

Ariena Najea · Apr 28, 2009, 01:24 PM // 13:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ratson Itamar

PvP Packs say hi.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ratson Itamar

Did you read my latest post in this thread? Rhetorical question, you obviously didn't. PvP unlock packs are not "just" cosmetic upgrades, they give you an immense advantage from the get go. I already had all the skills, items and every isle (TA and HA) unlocked so it didn't upset me that much, but saying that Anet only made cosmetic upgrades available for purchase is false.

Unless I'm missing something, those don't give any advantage at all compared to doing a little work for unlocking. Sure it saves you time, but I fail to see how the end result is having an "immense advantage."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ratson Itamar

The advantage is not to the extend of the 7 heroes idea, but it still gives the buyer a (huge) head start. So it IS an advantage.

No matter what new skills come out, you can only run 1 bar at a time. Lets say you make your entire skillbar from new skills. That costs 7*1k + 1*3k Balthazar Faction to unlock for a total of 10k. Even PvE players can easily accumulate this much from just a few matches of Jade Quarry or Fort Aspenwood, and is within the starting Faction Cap. Any experienced PvPer likely has a higher cap, faction lying around for any required unlocks, and means of getting faction more quickly than JQ or FA such as GvG or HA. Back to the PvE player, assuming 10 minute matches in JQ and earning 2k Balthazar Faction per match (about what I get), it would take only 50 minutes to earn the 10k faction required to unlock the desired 8 skills. Do this a week before the release and ta-da, you are all set to run your first full skillbar. Realistically, anyone who is hardcore enough to be purchasing the skill pack anyways will likely have at least a 20k Faction Cap, and so would be able to unlock 2 Elite Skills, and 14 Regular Skills. Furthermore, it's highly unlikely you'd create a bar solely of new skills. I hope this makes my position clearer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberNigma

As far as the value of buying extra hero slots, that's up to each individual. I can't justify spending large amounts of time in-game if that's the way to grind out heroes, but I can justify plumping down some cash so that I can play missions with more heroes when I don't party up. I enjoy the time playing missions and stuff (otherwise I wouldn't have tried to justified the money spent buying the game and time spent playing it), but my time is too valuable to grind out something that I think may make other parts of the game more enjoyable for me.

I agree with part of your argument, that having more options for purchasable goods is positive for players who don't have a lot of time on their hands, and aren't interested in the raw grind.

The problem with providing gameplay affecting benefits for real money is as I said before, that it goes against the game's principles of a no-fees game, where everything works out of the box. The problem with providing such benefits for money and/or in-game currency is that the two cannot be equated. For some, the enhancement would be so cheap that they would immediately be able to purchase it, while for others it would be all but unobtainable.

As far as examples go, most players don't have 10k lying around and have a hard enough time buying max armor, while others are mildly annoyed that storage can only hold up to 1 million gold. Either way, the community becomes upset and alienated, and ArenaNet loses future sales. This is why the only way such features can realistically be added to the game, is if they are so cheap that every player can afford them within a small time of owning the game. A good example is the Xunlai Materials Storage upgrade. Even as a new player to the game, earning 50 gold takes no more than 5 minutes. Characters in Prophecies will likely earn that through Pre-Searing. Canthan characters earn a Monastery Credit (= scroll = 100g at Merchant) for completing Ludo's no-work quest. Elonian characters easily make that much between the Tutorial (players who are not new that would skip the tutorial ought to have 50g anyways) and completing Chabek Village.

MithranArkanere · Apr 28, 2009, 01:30 PM // 13:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katsumi

One of the most imbalanced suggestions ever. ANet would be going against everything they've stood for in the past if they did this. Granted, as time has gone on they've gotten farther and farther away from their original plan and model. This would be equivalent to them turning around and running the other direction.

They are already slowing walking backwards to the dark fee side like when homer found Apu cheating her wife, while saying: "Hey, don't look at look at us, we are adding fees disguised as other stuff, but don't worry, we won't add fees! Haha!".
Let's hope they don't bring all the game with them to that side where some can't follow them.

Anyways, now that we have Zaishen quests, finding partners for those quests should be easier, the problem would be the rest, then.
Being an online game, I see making easy to party a better choice than easing solo play, so the best choice I can see here is a system to form parties worldwide, regardless of outpost, region, district or language, that lets you set what you want to do, and then go make other stuff while you wait to the party to form. If all I know about SQL is true, a single and simple list in which you add a single entry per character stating what that player can make from a list of all existing missions, quests, dungeons, etc is quite easy to make, and queries to that list even easier.

I'd rather go with something like that.

gremlin · Apr 28, 2009, 01:36 PM // 13:36

Buying more heroes to use in pve sure why not doesn't hurt anyone else put it in.
Its also a gold sink, what do you think of allowing 7 heroes but you must equip them yourself and armour and weapons are customised to the hero not the player.
I am all for giving the customers what they want so long as it doesn't mess up the game for everyone else.

If its reasonable in price then I might go for it just so I can experiment with full party builds on my own.
Its no where as much fun as playing with people but time considerations don't always make that possible.

I doubt it will happen as I think they are more into letting players alter the look of characters not things that make them better than others.

7 heroes would mess up some pvp for sure.

Sign up for one of their other free games and see what they are doing there, I can see some of what is presently in "Dungeon Runners" coming into GW and GW2.

Ratson Itamar · Apr 28, 2009, 01:56 PM // 13:56

@Ariena Najea, yes it does make your point of view clearer. I will try to make my point a bit clearer as well.

A player doesn't just unlock his own 8 skills but also his heroes'. Further more, having one bar is really limiting and boring. I, for one, am used to change skills, full builds and even professions all the time. Before I had all skills unlocked I had to stop playing every time I had an idea for a new bar, or needed some key skills for my heroes to counter effectively the current situation.

Moreover, you also get all the weapon and armor upgrades unlocked. Don't forget that now days, balth faction can be translated into money via Zkeys. 10k balth points are equal to 8k in gold (assuming 1 zkey is worth 4k). For a PvE player that is a lot of money to spend on skills his PvE characters don't even get when he unlocked them for PvP.

Beyond the time saver aspect of purchasing PvP unlock packs, it's like buying in game gold through the online store. I hope that you're not one of those Anet's blind fanboys as it will be the same for me to be talking to the wall.

Hyper.nl · Apr 28, 2009, 02:15 PM // 14:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

How is it an unfair advantage when heroes suck? (According to all the pugs that are now forming for Zaishen missions).

P.S. I believe this one is the updated edited thread, so ignore the other one.

If you ever tried sabway or just took a minion master and some searing flames heroes you would have noticed that heroes do not suck at all. If set up with balanced skill builds and team builds, heroes can greatly outperform henchmen and even some human groups.